 |
| Roderick Chia, Kieran James, and Jarrod Luo, around 2011-2012 |
Tuesday,
22 September 2009 @ Gelenggang Park, and then SDP office, Singapore
Interview
length: 2-3 hours.
Part 1
Jaslyn Go (aged 37): Singaporeans are brought up in such a way that unemployed people are lazy. Unemployment is not by choice especially in current situation. People don’t choose to be unemployed. There is social pressure to work. Here the social pressure is very strong. I know one friend who dresses for work and leaves early so the wife does not know he is jobless.
Jarrod Luo (aged 25): It is a huge loss to self-esteem to know you are jobless. There are huge social disincentives to be unemployed. So, you cannot say that giving unemployment benefits leads to laziness.
JG: In Singapore, tax seems low but there are many other taxes.
Kieran James: Tell me your history and how you became politicized on the opposition side.
JG: I grew up in a very
poor family; we stay in a one-room flat. There are six of us in family, stay
with Grandma as well. Our place is very cramped with so many people living
under one roof. I grew up sleeping on the floor without a mattress. Because my
parents could not afford electricity, me and my sister went to community centre
to have a bath. It was an HDB rental flat, most of the citizens lived in a
rental flat, this was 1970s, my father was on and off working, he was a very
compulsive gambler. There were many families in this situation.
In the 1960s and 1970s, the government introduced HDB. It was Bukit Merah. All my neighbours were living in these conditions, all staying in one-room flats. At that time, a lot of Malays lived in that neighbourhood and they had large families. We tended to see a lot of quarrelling among family members, over jobs. We saw a lot of quarrelling at that time- mostly it is due to money or the lack thereof. At that time, I was too young to compare kampongs and HDB.
JL: In those ages, HDB residents were evicted from kampongs and relocated to public housing. They were not given the market rate of compensation, it’s your own land, your own house. There was sub-par compensation.
JG: I was still below ten, so I was not aware.
JG: I live near where
JBJ lived- opposition sentiment was quite strong. I saw him at the interchange
selling books and newspapers. This was 1970s/early 1980s. I remember seeing him
in the train station. Even though we were very poor, my mother tried to dig up
money to buy newspaper from him.
I
was even too poor to go to school; I was very fearful about paying school fees
as I was afraid my teacher would ask for school fees. My school was far from my
place, walking to school took 30 to 40 minutes. Public transport was out of the
question. I had to walk through the factories, and I was chased by dogs.
In my secondary years, I had to support myself, I worked as waitress, factories, and McDonald’s. I worked six to eight hours, seven days a week. Whenever I go to school, I was always very tired. I remember in school that none of my friends went through what I had gone through. They seemed to have no problems buying in the canteen.
JL: They were mostly from middle-class families.
JG: They are seriously
not as poor as me, I was just surviving. Many people in my blocks, Malays, even
Chinese, give up school early and become hawkers and cleaners. They give up
their studies to help paying their school fees. They end up hawking at Newtown
Hawker Centre.
I am still staying at Bukit Merah. The government has demolished and rebuilt the one-room flat, now I stay in five-room flat. Just opposite me are rented studio apartments. The whole family lives in this one area.
Seelan Palay (aged 25):
It is very depressing, there are no [internal] walls, it is 8 metres by 6
metres. There are two different worlds. When the loan sharks want to target
you, they throw red paint on the door. Many have red paint on the doors. Just
opposite are the expensive HDB flats. You can see how unjust it is. You can see
each other from each other’s windows.
Grandma, father, girl, mother, two boys live in a room, 6 metres by 7 metres. You can survive; they have a roof over their heads. What about the kids? They will think study is no good for them, many social problems multiply from there. This is LKY’s constituency, he said “show me a beggar”, this is Tanjong Pagar GRC.
JG: My brother ended up
not studying, gambler, nuisance to the family, cannot hold down a proper job,
environment played a very big part.
When
I’m young, I’m facing all these kinds of problems. My teachers should know I’m
going through these problems. My survival instinct is so strong, I push myself
to work at a very young age. No help was rendered or even a teacher noticing I
had problems or could not pay school fees. In those days, Malay students were
subsidized more at school. I was led to believe the reason then that the policy
was we must not offend the Malays.
Even
though now I’m not that poor, but not rich either. I remember the poor days and
what I went through. I hope the children of our future will not go what I went
through. The environment then was not conducive to study.
I am
quite an accidental activist. I protest against the rising cost-of-living in
Singapore. Since I brought up children, I realized that bringing up children is
not cheap in Singapore. My first child cost $12,000 to deliver him. The support
is lacking in Singapore for new mothers. I found it a very scary experience.
Not much is given to first-time mums, nothing is done for you, confinement
nanny/midwife, Chinese cultural thing, costs $2,000 of salary plus confinement
levy.
No
assistance at all is given. When my children came nursery age- my goodness, I
am shocked at the charges of child-care in Singapore. The government subsidy is
so miserable for child-care, it’s a paltry sum, cost $500 a month, government
pays $150 if not working and $300 if working. The government complains about
low birth rate, 2003 was lowest in Singapore’s history, no bonus, no nothing at
that time. Being a mother made me realize bringing up a kid is not really cheap
in Singapore- the government don’t give enough help and still blame the
problem. When SDP had a rally, I was charged in court and facing a lawsuit (15
March 2008 protest, World Consumer Day). That was my maiden protest.
Last
time, I did not know SDP that well. Because I was being charged, it gave me an
opportunity to know them better. I think SDP are voices for the people, raise
issues that concern us. After they charged me, to be fair, there must be
certain fear- my family will know about it, how to explain to friends. I always
avoided the cameras, but my pics came out in the paper.
My
family knew it was me, then all hell broke loose. I now come here very often.
My family are not very supportive still, but I try to reassure them that I know
what I am doing.
I start my children young, one is four, one is five. I tell my family I am responsible for my own actions. My children were among the youngest protesters too. I was not arrested on the spot because my children were there.
JL: It would cost too much politically to do so.
JG: Because they charge
us together, there is a certain bond among us. It gives us the opportunity to
know each better. Before the protest I did not know them very well. Now I know
them very well on the personal level- as an activist, a politician, and a
friend. I personally help SDP more often although I’m not yet a member.
In Singapore, the poor are the forgotten ones. Every day I see poor people in my neighbourhood.
JL: It is more a case of out-of-sight, out-of-mind- homeless people are actively rounded up. Recently, one guy was arrested and fined $800 for sleeping on the bench. Our social justice here is totally lacking. This was a high-profile case.
JG: Some people say there is no poverty in Singapore- that is complete bullshit.
JL: Now, in order to stop people sleeping on the bench- now they put handles, pretending to be handrest.
JG: They don’t even want to give bench to the poor.
JL: Although it’s public property, they redesigned the benches so no-one could sleep on them.
JG: They don’t like people to sleep on the bench anymore. I don’t know what kind of society we have when there is no compassion for the poor.
JL: Some say, “the government is doing right, homeless are a blight on society”. The whole society has been decompassionized, brainwashed. They are disenfranchised. Singaporeans don’t question what causes led them to become homeless.
JG: The article with me and my kids in the picture was done after I was charged. That was the interview Dr Chee did- English version is on the SDP website. You can use our names, definitely. I’m getting bolder. Since after my pic is available, and my friends know I’m with SDP, there’s nothing left behind to hide.
JL: You can start living with this media coverage, it’s a humbling process.
JG: HDB only rents to
two, not to one; requires two single strangers to come together. Sometimes this
causes friction, one person was murdered. Forces people to live outside their
preferred lifestyle. We don’t have enough rental flats.
It pains me to see old people treated like that. I can’t forgive the government for treating our elderly this way. They are the ones who built the country up. We went to a nursing home, and it is sad to see some of them living like that- forgotten. The elderly in Singapore are not living with any type of dignity. Is this how we reward our elderly? This should not be the way. Only MPs and civil servants are enjoying pensions, for the normal person it was taken away long ago.
JL: If the clan associations started anything [perceived as political], they would be closed down. The situation is insidious because people are enforcing it upon their own. The government just puts pressure in the right places, and the people do the rest for them, they just don’t realize it. Right now, it is hard because PAP and the country are one and the same in people’s minds. To not support PAP is to be disloyal to the country and betray the country. Young people are depoliticised and enthralled with the latest gadgets; let them be enthralled to the latest show on the movies and leave them to their own devices after that.
JG: People tell me if you oppose PAP, your children will be removed from school, and you won’t be able to find a job.
Part 2
(after a break)
SP: If there is need for such protestation, these young people help us to do that. The leadership stands ready to do what is necessary and can stand by them. At least 30 young people we have right now who we can rely on. So, I think we can somewhat soften our own image now.
JG: I want my children to have a happy childhood. I don’t send my children to any enrichment class, except for swimming and gym, only because they requested it. You can never get the childhood back. Do I want my children to be another typical Singaporean? I teach my children not about education but love, love for the less fortunate, love even for the foreign maid. Many employers don’t let the maid have an off-day. You can blame the government for it- if the maid gets in trouble or gets pregnant the employer is responsible. We have $5,000 bond with the government. If the maid decides to elope with someone else, you lose the $5,000. If I don’t let the maid go off, I have more problems. I advocate human rights; my maid has two days off a month. That is considered very liberal. Some maids, when they enjoy that type of freedom, they want more and ask for more. Now, we have to get insurance for foreign workers even outside of office hours. Even our own people don’t get to enjoy this. A new law will be if you don’t provide maintenance for parents, you can be sued. But why make it into a law? Life is so costly, the cost of providing for relatives is pushed on us. A minister said if you can’t afford a nursing home here, send them to JB. What sort of attitude is this?
JL: What made you
become politicized? I would not say it came fast to me, but I was always one to
question authority that demanded absolute obedience. In primary school, I had a
debate or quarrel. My English teacher was teaching the class about measures of
time. She said a century is 1,000 years ago, a millennium is 100 years.
Naturally I objected. She said: “Don’t question me in class”. I learnt that
authorities that demand obedience can still be wrong. Facts are still facts, no
matter what you insist them to be. I was only 8 or 9, that is the earliest
experience I can remember. I did not make a fuss. Now I know my rights, I speak
up.
It was not any isolated event [that politicized me] but I gave authority figures that had power a hard time. I was pretty much an outcast, I spoke up in my class, my classmates shunned me, I spoke up for what I felt was right. Others did not join me as they felt they would be collateral damage if the hand of authority fell down on me. I felt a kindred spirit with SDP, it struck a chord with me, it’s what I always stood for. They are taking on the whole machinery. God bless SDP, I voted for them last time, 2006GE. They didn’t win unfortunately. I admire their bravery.
KJ: Why don’t fired workers become politicized?
JL: Many workers fired don’t think of the root of
the problem, they don’t want to create waves, it’s too uncertain, but to me an
uncertain chance of survival is better than a certain chance of brain death
under the system. At least I can know if I failed, I tried. I did not submit
like a lamb to the slaughter. It’s worth the gamble.
Many people don’t become political due to fear, but they don’t have much to lose. I am willing to take the gamble. Five-room flat in a decent area is $500k-$750k. For that amount, I can get a nice house [in Australia], yacht to sail in the Brisbane River.
KJ: Did your Australian experiences radicalize you?
JL: When I went to
Australia, it helped me in the process politically. It broadened my horizons quite
a bit. It gave me a vision of a better world out there that I can fall back on.
That is not what many Singaporeans think- they don’t think of the system that
made it better for the people overseas. They only look at trivial reasons for
cross-country difference. They don’t look at the reasons why the country
progressed in that way. Most people, especially Singaporeans, clam up about
political topics.
The first time I was caught at an SDP event, the police were trying to disperse us. That was the first official contact I had with the SDP. That was my first official connection with them. I turned up as an onlooker. I met Dr Chee and told them I voted for them and was grateful for those who gave me a chance to express my view. Police were there videotaping and surveillance and I think I was caught on their cameras. I got to know the party people; I spoke to the more prominent ones that I could recognize.
KJ: What do you think of opposition party MPs Chiam and Low?
JL: Personally, I think
that I am disappointed with their performance, and I expected more from them.
It is pretty much telling why the PAP is not giving them such a hard time- that
says a lot already. It looks better in the international arena, they are
“state-sanctioned” oppositions, look-alikes, puppets.
Chiam is more like a tribal leader, he does not aim to campaign outside his constituency. He is aiming to hold his seat rather than be a true opposition. Low is the antithesis of an opposition politician I admire so much, like JBJ. What use is there for them to collect the parliamentary allowance when they do not do enough of the right thing? It is very selfish and people of Singapore stand to lose much from that.
SP: As a member of civil society, I feel these opposition parties are not really challenging the ruling party. They should know by now what the ruling party is doing for the country. In other countries, the opposition politicians do more- why don’t the opposition here just join the government? It’s majority-rule so as to ensure that the minority is not left out. Some human rights enforcement is needed to ensure that the minority are not abused or left behind. Any party in the twenty-first century if they don’t include human rights in their agenda then they are quite backwards. Young people now care about human rights. If you don’t offer it, you are an old fogey who simply says, “vote for me, I will give you rice”.
[The last word was misheard as “rights” by JL, leading to laughter.]
KJ: Do you think Singapore should have merged with Malaysia?
JL: I think Singapore
should have merged [with Malaysia], but on better terms. I don’t know too much
of the details, but when LKY did the referendum there were only three different
options to merge. This was when they joined the whole of Malaysia, but they did
have internal control. Barisan socialists opposed lack of a “no” option. LKY
stated that spoiled votes were to be stated as yes votes.
Personally, geographically, and historically, I believe that Singapore should be part of the greater Malaysia. They share so much history and economics. There should be some autonomous state government while leaving foreign affairs and defence to the federal government. Then people would be free to move about, now you waste two hours on a public holiday getting your visa stamped. This is because of the mistakes made by our politicians years ago. I heard the Sultan of Brunei offered a piece of land larger than Singapore to the Singapore Malays at the time of separation. It was to be an enclave to the Malays of Singapore. The Malays of Singapore did not buy [accept] it. He was rejected. The idea of one race dominating another has been magnified and propagandized. This is anecdotal evidence. The PAP and UMNO like to play divide-and-rule politics. If the people stand united, no government can stand in the way. The ruling party would love to play one opposition party against each other, and they are constantly doing it. The parliamentary opposition are doing this many times over, which I feel is very sad, rather than putting time and effort in opposing the PAP.
*****THE END*****
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